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Topic Title: Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles
Topic Summary:
Created On: 09/04/2016 05:08 AM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - caligula - 09/04/2016 05:08 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - caligula - 09/04/2016 10:56 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 09/05/2016 01:01 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - Lunis Orcutt - 09/05/2016 04:30 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - caligula - 09/06/2016 04:50 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - Zoomdoggies - 09/09/2016 02:38 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 09/06/2016 01:04 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - Lunis Orcutt - 09/06/2016 11:07 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - mdl - 09/06/2016 11:15 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 09/05/2016 06:15 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - caligula - 09/06/2016 04:01 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - mdl - 09/06/2016 11:08 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - mdl - 09/09/2016 04:31 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 09/09/2016 06:07 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 09/10/2016 02:39 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - caligula - 09/13/2016 04:11 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 09/13/2016 01:04 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - Lunis Orcutt - 09/13/2016 08:22 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - haughki - 09/14/2016 01:05 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - haughki - 09/14/2016 01:53 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - caligula - 09/14/2016 06:39 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - phils - 09/20/2016 11:49 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - ben_west - 09/19/2016 05:40 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - alexander - 09/20/2016 11:46 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - mdl - 09/20/2016 12:01 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - ben_west - 09/21/2016 10:44 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - mdl - 09/21/2016 12:14 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - ben_west - 09/21/2016 03:58 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - mdl - 09/22/2016 10:43 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - ben_west - 09/29/2016 12:39 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - mdl - 09/29/2016 03:54 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - quintijn - 10/02/2016 08:13 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - ben_west - 10/28/2016 10:15 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 10/28/2016 07:49 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - Zoomdoggies - 10/29/2016 02:49 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 10/30/2016 04:19 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - Derek Morin - 11/21/2016 08:36 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 11/22/2016 06:39 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - bbryan20 - 10/30/2016 04:31 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - thalon - 11/02/2016 01:16 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - alexander - 11/04/2016 01:23 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 11/06/2016 01:19 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 11/30/2016 01:13 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - mdl - 11/30/2016 10:42 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - guidugli - 12/07/2016 08:02 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - Lunis Orcutt - 12/07/2016 02:46 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 12/07/2016 03:48 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - guidugli - 12/07/2016 07:58 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - ben_west - 12/09/2016 12:05 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - alexander - 12/09/2016 04:11 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 12/10/2016 03:23 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 12/10/2016 01:27 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 12/11/2016 05:20 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - guidugli - 12/11/2016 08:24 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 12/11/2016 09:53 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 12/12/2016 12:29 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - Chucker - 12/12/2016 10:57 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 12/12/2016 12:17 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 12/12/2016 01:20 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - Chucker - 12/12/2016 12:49 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 12/12/2016 04:25 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 12/12/2016 05:10 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - guidugli - 12/14/2016 09:25 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - esjesjesj - 12/23/2016 03:14 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 12/23/2016 02:37 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - G.J. Premo - 12/23/2016 01:29 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - Voice - 12/25/2016 10:17 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - caligula - 12/26/2016 02:42 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 12/26/2016 05:51 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - caligula - 12/26/2016 07:10 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 12/26/2016 07:50 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - esjesjesj - 12/27/2016 02:11 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - caligula - 12/27/2016 03:47 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - Lunis Orcutt - 12/27/2016 01:33 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - esjesjesj - 12/28/2016 12:14 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - R. Wilke - 12/27/2016 03:28 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - guidugli - 01/05/2017 11:59 AM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - mdl - 01/08/2017 06:33 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - mdl - 01/08/2017 06:36 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - mdl - 01/08/2017 06:44 PM  
 Natink & Dragonfly, DPI 15 troubles   - chpla - 03/16/2017 05:40 PM  
Keyword
 09/04/2016 05:08 AM
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caligula
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I've upgraded to DPI 15.

The good news: Natlink registers, and loads. Grammars are recognized, and the simplest commands (Dictation to Key) work.

The problem: I haven't managed to get more complex commands to work. Even the simple ones such as "up 5" to move up 5 times. The following is shown in the log:

loadModSpecific: invalid modulename, skipping (moduleInfo): ('C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Microsoft Office\\root\\Office16\\OUTLOOK.EXE', 'Dragon', 67808)

 

Other commands don't write anything to the log, but simply have no effect.

Does anyone experience the same, or something else? Any ideas?

 09/04/2016 10:56 AM
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caligula
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More information:

It seems there are two distinct issues.

No1:

It seems like NatlinkStatus::getLanguage returns zzz, and reports this error:
getLanguage: Warning, no model specification string for key 2 1 found in "Base Acoustic" of inifile: C:\ProgramData\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking15\Users\josh\current\acoustic.ini

At first glance, this doesn't make sense, as the acoustic.ini file has this section:
[Base Acoustic]
2 1=UK English | BestMatch IV

The acoustic.ini file in DPI 14 had this section:
[Base Acoustic]
0 1=UK English | BestMatch IV
2 1=UK English | BestMatch IV

The 2 1 key seems to exist in both.

I've tried manually returning "enx" as the language instead of zzz, but it had no effect.

No2:

Enabling debug callback, I can see the following error whenever there's a recognition which has no effect:

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "C:\NatLink\NatLink\MacroSystem\core\natlinkmain.py", line 577, in beginCallback
(cbd, checkAll, checkForGrammarChanges)
natlink.NatError: A SRERR_VALUEOUTOFRANGE error occurred calling ISRResGraph::GetWordNode from ResObj.cpp 186.

I couldn't figure out much more about what this means.

Any ideas?
 09/05/2016 01:01 PM
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G.J. Premo
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This, together with inabliity to change the microphone icon color and blank Command Browser reported in other posts, is reason enough to stick with DPI 14, unless and until fixes or workarounds are found. 

 09/05/2016 04:30 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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Switching back to Ver. 14 sounds a little drastic when you consider that you are giving up the Deep Learning engine and double speed dictation. You can easily eliminate the microphone color problem by using the new auto collapse Modern microphone icon view. Admittedly, we are having some issues with getting Dragon to recognize some of our personal commands because Dragon doesn't like abbreviations such as DS-7000 but we assume this is a bug that will be fixed.



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 09/06/2016 04:50 AM
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caligula
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Originally posted by: Lunis Orcutt Switching back to Ver. 14 sounds a little drastic when you consider that you are giving up the Deep Learning engine and double speed dictation. You can easily eliminate the microphone color problem by using the new auto collapse Modern microphone icon view. Admittedly, we are having some issues with getting Dragon to recognize some of our personal commands because Dragon doesn't like abbreviations such as DS-7000 but we assume this is a bug that will be fixed.

 

 

At least for me, Natlink not working is a HUGE deal. Pretty much my entire workflow depends on it. I would switch back to 14 were it not for the very fast response by a natlink dev.

 09/09/2016 02:38 PM
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Zoomdoggies
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It's a huge deal for me, too. Did you get it to work? If so, how?

 09/06/2016 01:04 PM
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R. Wilke
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Dragon doesn't like abbreviations such as DS-7000 but we assume this is a bug that will be fixed.

 

 

Not a bug, it's by design. Enter "DS 7000" as written form, and change the printed form under properties to "DS-7000".

 



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 09/06/2016 11:07 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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Originally posted by: R. Wilke  Not a bug, it's by design. Enter "DS 7000" as written form, and change the printed form under properties to "DS-7000". 


Nice catch Rüdiger. We hadn't considered these changes to be deliberate. For example, the only way we could get our DS 7000 Hyperlink command to work was to change its name to DS seven thousand Hyperlink; including applying lowercase to “seven thousand” because it didn't work in Title Case.



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 09/06/2016 11:15 PM
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mdl
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can you give some examples of non-recognized utterances?

The code looks like the problem might be an inadequately sized word buffer.

 

 09/05/2016 06:15 PM
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G.J. Premo
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Not switching back, since I haven't installed DPI 15 yet. Just delaying unless and until fixes or workarounds are found.
 09/06/2016 04:01 AM
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caligula
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Changing the acoustic.ini file from utf-8-bom encoding to utf-8 made problem No 1 go away. I wouldn't know how to solve it from the Natlink level though, since GetProfileSectionW is not available in pywin.
Problem 2 persists. It only occurs with multiple-word commands, which makes sense, since we're getting a value out of range error.
 09/06/2016 11:08 PM
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mdl
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Lunis, can you please move this to the Third-Party Command Utilities - Vocola, Unimacro, VoicePower, Python... forum where it belongs?
 09/09/2016 04:31 PM
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mdl
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"Traceback (most recent call last):
File "C:\NatLink\NatLink\MacroSystem\core\natlinkmain.py", line 577, in beginCallback
(cbd, checkAll, checkForGrammarChanges)
natlink.NatError: A SRERR_VALUEOUTOFRANGE error occurred calling ISRResGraph::GetWordNode from ResObj.cpp 186. "

I believe this is the NatLink version of the bug people are seeing using the normal SDK here:
https://www.knowbrainer.com/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=4&threadid=22974&enterthread=y
 09/09/2016 06:07 PM
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R. Wilke
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I believe this is the NatLink version of the bug people are seeing using the normal SDK here:

Yes, I told you so via email.

 



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 09/10/2016 02:39 PM
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G.J. Premo
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Caligula:
I am unclear on what the precise problem is with DPI 15 and Natlink/Vocola. Are you saying that two or more word commands do not work?

And you fixed it my editing the acoustical.ini file?
 09/13/2016 04:11 AM
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caligula
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No, there were two different problems - one, the acoustic.ini file wasn't parsed by Natlink. Changing the encoding fixed that.

Secondly - no multi-word commands work with Natlink, and apparently other SDK applications too. This one isn't solved, and sadly renders DPI15 pretty much useless to me and others.

 09/13/2016 01:04 PM
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G.J. Premo
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Bummer.

 09/13/2016 08:22 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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Originally posted by: caligula No, there were two different problems - one, the acoustic.ini file wasn't parsed by Natlink. Changing the encoding fixed that.

Secondly - no multi-word commands work with Natlink, and apparently other SDK applications too. This one isn't solved, and sadly renders DPI15 pretty much useless to me and others.



Would it be possible to combine command names as a temporary workaround? For example, could you get away with changing a command name like Insert Paragraph to InsertParagraph?



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 09/14/2016 01:05 AM
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haughki
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Would it be possible to combine command names as a temporary workaround? For example, could you get away with changing a command name like Insert Paragraph to InsertParagraph?

 

Maybe on some of the very simplest of commands, but command chaining ala Dragonfly (Continuous Command Recognition) isn't that simple.  The whole point is to allow the user to dictate commands in the same way you'd dictate text.  The power isn't just in combining commands, but also in not having to pause after each one....

Anyhow, to give you an example, I've got ~180 commands in my biggest CCR module -- any of them can be chained with any other up to 16 commands deep -- big matrix  Usually it's only three to five commands at a time, but still, without the chaining, well, you'd be doing something _entirely_ different.

In short, definitely not.

 09/14/2016 01:53 AM
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haughki
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no multi-word commands work with Natlink, and apparently other SDK applications too. This one isn't solved, and sadly renders DPI15 pretty much useless to me and others.

 

Does anyone know if anyone is working to resolve this issue (I'm assuming this would be someone working on NatLink)?



 09/14/2016 06:39 AM
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caligula
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Originally posted by: haughki
no multi-word commands work with Natlink, and apparently other SDK applications too. This one isn't solved, and sadly renders DPI15 pretty much useless to me and others.

 

 

Does anyone know if anyone is working to resolve this issue (I'm assuming this would be someone working on NatLink)?

 

 

The Natlink devs are looking into it. I don't know if this is even something that can be worked around by them though, since it seems to affect other SDK applications too. 

 09/20/2016 11:49 AM
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phils
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 09/19/2016 05:40 PM
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ben_west
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I am also getting what I think is the same error (natlink.NatError: A SRERR_VALUEOUTOFRANGE error occurred calling ISRResGraph::GetWordNode from ResObj.cpp 186) But I am also getting a separate error:
```
wordsAndNums: [('Copy That', 0)]
ruleMap: {1: 'dgndictation', 2: '1', 3: '2', 4: '3', 5: '4', 6: '5', 7: '6', 8: '7', 9: '8', 10: '9', 11: '10', 12: '11', 13: '12', 14: '13', 15: '14', 16: '15', 17: '16', 18: '17', 19: '18', 20: '19', 21: '20', 22: '21', 23: '22', 24: '23', 25: '24', 26: '25', 27: '26', 28: '27', 29: 'website', 30: 'TLD', 31: '28', 32: '29', 33: '29b', 34: '30', 35: '30b', 36: '31', 37: '32', 38: '33', 39: '34', 40: '35', 41: '36', 42: '37', 43: '38', 44: 'n', 45: '39', 46: '40', 47: '41', 48: '42', 49: '43', 50: '44', 51: '45', 52: '46', 53: '47', 54: '48', 55: '49', 56: '145', 57: '50', 58: '51', 59: '52', 60: '53', 61: '146', 62: '54', 63: '55', 64: '56', 65: '57', 66: 'upDown', 67: 'leftRight', 68: '58', 69: '59', 70: 'edge', 71: '60', 72: '147', 73: '61', 74: '148', 75: '62', 76: '149', 77: '63', 78: '150', 79: '64', 80: '151', 81: '65', 82: '152', 83: '66', 84: '67', 85: '68', 86: 'direction', 87: 'left_right', 88: 'up_down', 89: 'start_end', 90: '69', 91: '153', 92: '70', 93: '71', 94: '154', 95: '72', 96: '73', 97: '155', 98: '74', 99: '156', 100: '75', 101: '76', 102: '77', 103: '77b', 104: '78', 105: '79', 106: '79b', 107: '80', 108: '81', 109: '82', 110: '83', 111: '84', 112: '85', 113: '86', 114: '86b', 115: '87', 116: '87b', 117: '88', 118: '89', 119: '90', 120: '91', 121: '92', 122: '93', 123: '94', 124: '95', 125: '96', 126: '97', 127: '98', 128: '99', 129: '100', 130: '101', 131: '102', 132: '103', 133: '104', 134: '105', 135: '106', 136: '107', 137: '108', 138: '109', 139: '110', 140: '111', 141: '112', 142: '113', 143: '114', 144: '115', 145: '116', 146: '117', 147: '118', 148: '119', 149: '120', 150: '121', 151: '157', 152: '122', 153: 'key', 154: '123', 155: '124', 156: '125', 157: '126', 158: 'special', 159: 'mod', 160: 'nn', 161: '127', 162: '158', 163: '128', 164: '159', 165: '129', 166: '160', 167: '130', 168: '161', 169: '131', 170: '132', 171: '133', 172: '1to20', 173: '134', 174: '135', 175: '135b', 176: '162', 177: '136', 178: '136b', 179: '163', 180: '137', 181: '137b', 182: '138', 183: '138b', 184: 'folder', 185: '139', 186: '140', 187: '141', 188: '142', 189: '143', 190: 'any', 191: 'sequence', 192: 'any_set2', 193: 'sequence_set2'}
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "C:\NatLink\NatLink\MacroSystem\core\natlinkutils.py", line 596, in resultsCallback
raise KeyError(mess)
KeyError: 'Invalid key 0 for ruleMap'
```
As indicated by the trace, this occurs whenever I say "copy that".

Does anyone know how I can fix this?

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 09/20/2016 11:46 AM
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alexander
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I'm curious, does anybody have any connections within the Dragon development team? Has Dragon mentioned anything about the change to this interface? I remember when I read the original Natlink website, the original author issued a dire warning against trying to contact Dragon tech support since if they received too many questions about it they would kill this feature. Does this intersect at all with their SDK work? Has the SDK stuff broken as well?
 09/20/2016 12:01 PM
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mdl
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ben_west: do you still get the error with "copy that" if you remove the dictation rule from your grammar?
 09/21/2016 10:44 AM
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ben_west
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mdl: thanks for the response! Yes, the error disappears if I remove "copy that" from my grammar. But I'm also seeing a similar error with other commands, and I can't figure out the rhyme or reason. For example I see it with "run login", "newer", "older" but not with "ls" or "navigate to Gmail" (for the latter ones I either get no error or get the error that was posted at the top of this thread).

I guess it's kind of a moot point since people are saying that a lot of the commands work anyway, but I was hoping I could get this partially working.

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 09/21/2016 12:14 PM
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mdl
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Don't remove "copy that"; instead try removing the rules using arbitrary dictation -- <_anything> with Vocola, for example. Does that help?
(DNS has in the past done weird things with the arbitrary dictation rule)
 09/21/2016 03:58 PM
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ben_west
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Thanks for the suggestion! I deleted all of my Vocola macros and created just one:

test = "this is a test";

This gives me the following error when I try to use it:

wordsAndNums: [('test', 0)]
ruleMap: {1: '1', 2: 'any', 3: 'sequence'}
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "C:\NatLink\NatLink\MacroSystem\core\natlinkutils.py", line 596, in resultsCallback
raise KeyError(mess)
KeyError: 'Invalid key 0 for ruleMap'

This happens both when I make the rule for just one application as well as want to make it global. 

That did fix an issue that I didn't mention though: "press [whatever]" is working now.

I might be running a weird version of Vocola (Vocola version 2.8.5BETA+Vortex) - is this something that would be fixed if I switch to a version without Vortex?



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 09/22/2016 10:43 PM
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mdl
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What happens if you make a second command? Do they both fail the same way?
 09/29/2016 12:39 PM
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ben_west
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Yes, they both feel the same way. Here is my_vocola.vcl file:

test = "this is a test";

foo = "foo";

here is the output when I try to use them:

==================================================

wordsAndNums: [('test', 0)]

ruleMap: {1: '1', 2: '2', 3: 'any', 4: 'sequence'}

Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "C:\NatLink\NatLink\MacroSystem\core\natlinkutils.py", line 596, in resultsCallback

    raise KeyError(mess)

KeyError: 'Invalid key 0 for ruleMap'

beginCallback, cbd: 1, checkAll: None, checkForGrammarChanges: 0

no changes Vocola user files

check for changed files (only specific)

==================================================

wordsAndNums: [('foo', 0)]

ruleMap: {1: '1', 2: '2', 3: 'any', 4: 'sequence'}

Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "C:\NatLink\NatLink\MacroSystem\core\natlinkutils.py", line 596, in resultsCallback

    raise KeyError(mess)

KeyError: 'Invalid key 0 for ruleMap'



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 09/29/2016 03:54 PM
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mdl
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okay, that's just broken. I was hoping some kind of permutation of the provided rule number would map to the correct one. :-(
 10/02/2016 08:13 AM
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quintijn
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I hope Rudiger can have a try. Obviously the wordsAndNums, which comes directly out of natlink.pyd into python (natlinkutils.py) does not give a rule number but just 0.
 10/28/2016 10:15 AM
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ben_west
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Have there been any updates to this issue? Has anyone found a way to get DPI 15 working with Vocola et al?

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 10/28/2016 07:49 PM
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R. Wilke
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Have there been any updates to this issue?


Unofficially, yes, the issue has been resolved.


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Zoomdoggies
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Originally posted by: R. Wilke
Have there been any updates to this issue?
Unofficially, yes, the issue has been resolved.

What does that mean? Is there a way to get Natlink/Vocola working with DPI 15? If so, how?

 10/30/2016 04:19 PM
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G.J. Premo
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Good news, I will look forward to when it becomes "official", and then I can install DPI 15.

( I assume "unoficial" means that it is working in the laboratory, not yet ready to release to the public).

 11/21/2016 08:36 AM
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Any more details on what "unofficially" means?



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 11/22/2016 06:39 PM
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R. Wilke
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Originally posted by: Derek Morin Any more details on what "unofficially" means?

 

Basically, a fix exists, but cannot be shared unfortunately. The problem was not with the NatLink code, and couldn't be solved from within it. The problem was with the Dragon code, and the manufacturer provided a solution. Everone will have to wait until it is distributed officially however.

 



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bbryan20
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I would love to know when this is resolved also... I really like DPI 15, but I really miss Vocola :-(
 11/02/2016 01:16 PM
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I'm also interrested :-)
 11/04/2016 01:23 PM
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alexander
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>( I assume "unoficial" means that it is working in the laboratory, not yet ready to release to the public).

Considering the earlier thread indicating values returned from dragons API were completely incorrect, I would guess that 'unofficial' means that Dragon might've fixed it but it will require a release of Dragon before it would work. But that's just a guess. I know Dragon has done point releases before, although perhaps not since they moved to an annual cycle. Here's hoping...
 11/06/2016 01:19 PM
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G.J. Premo
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Until R. Wilke says what "unofficially" means, we are guessing. Main point is that we can't use DPI 15 until a solution to its problem with Natlink is released.
 11/30/2016 01:13 PM
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G.J. Premo
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I wonder whether the fix will be distributed officially before DPI 16.
 11/30/2016 10:42 PM
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mdl
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has anybody tried opening up a technical support question and asking for the fix?
 12/07/2016 08:02 AM
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guidugli
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Yes, and the answer was:

"Unfortunately, we have no access to the information required. We will receive news and the update at the same time than the costumers. I am sorry for all the troubles this can cause you."

I am thinking if I will return the product or not. Still on the 30 day period.
 12/07/2016 02:46 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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                    Welcome to the World's Most Popular Speech Recognition Forum

Nuance is sometimes a little short on information but you might try sorting your questions here. This forum seems to specialize in workarounds so give us a shot before you give up on DPI 15. We found 1/2 a dozen bugs in DPI 15 in the 1st 20 minutes but most of the problems can be handled with workarounds. It's a pity that Nuance gave up beta testing after Dragon 13. Hopefully they have learned a good lesson.



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 12/07/2016 03:48 PM
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G.J. Premo
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The problem is DPI 15 doesn't work with Vocola, and there is no workaround for that, because the problem is the DPI code, per the prior discussions here.
 12/07/2016 07:58 PM
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guidugli
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Yes, although I can mostly work on my windows VM, I need natlink in order to use a program (Aenea) that relays commands to linux. This would give me the option of using Dragon, even if not all features, with other VMs and host. Unfortunately I have a problem on both hands and this is a shot on reducing the stress on them. I work with IT and use computers all day long.
 12/09/2016 12:05 PM
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ben_west
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guidugli: I played with Aenea for a while, but ultimately decided that it was easier to just SSH to my virtual machine and dictate into the putty window. I have a network file system that's shared between the host and the virtual machine, in case I need to access files on Windows. If Aenea is not working for you, you could try something similar.

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 12/09/2016 04:11 PM
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alexander
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I occasionally have to run Linux/centOS which I do inside of a virtual machine on my Windows host. You can definitely send commands into it using Dragon. I believe I used to have to use a lot of send system keys, but with Mark's key Vocola plug-in I was able to go back to full speed text instead of slow send system keys.

It worked fairly well although certainly not perfectly. I also had the putty set up whereby I could send commands in that way, and also a smb to share files.
 12/10/2016 03:23 AM
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R. Wilke
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With regards to a hotfix published recently, matthewls noted on another thread:

"HF1 includes dgnword_x64.dll, dd10sapi.dll, and dgnword.dll updates that I've seen so far."

http://knowbrainer.com/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=4&threadid=23573&highlight_key=y#136256  

Well, I haven't tried it, but dd10sapi.dll is the fix you are looking for. Please try it and report back.

http://supportcontent.nuance.com/dragon/15/DNS15HF1.exe  



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 12/10/2016 01:27 PM
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G.J. Premo
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That is hopeful, but to try it I would have to uninstall DPI 14 and installl DPI 15, and if it didn't fiz the Natlinnk/Vocola problem, I would have to reverse the process, and be several hours down the road. Hmm, maybe I can try it on a computer I don't use often. Would appreciate any reports in the meantime.
 12/11/2016 05:20 AM
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R. Wilke
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Gilbert, although it is always a good idea to install a new program version on a non-production system first, this fix is a close as it gets. I just ran it and the version of the releavant DLL is slightly higher than the one I had for testing, which was good already.

After downloading the fix (executable), make sure to terminate Dragon prior to running it. If it is pure DPI 15 (no third-party involved), all it takes is to close Dragon via the Dragon bar as it terminates properly when running on its own.

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guidugli
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Hi, unfortunately the hotfix did not solve the problem. I did close the app, applied the fix twice, it replaced the dd10sapi.dll, but still getting the error below:

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "C:\NatLink\NatLink\MacroSystem\core\natlinkmain.py", line 577, in beginCallback
(cbd, checkAll, checkForGrammarChanges)
natlink.NatError: A SRERR_VALUEOUTOFRANGE error occurred calling ISRResGraph::GetWordNode from ResObj.cpp 186.

I'd like to thank everyone about the answers provided. This is a really great forum.
 12/11/2016 09:53 AM
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R. Wilke
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Hi, unfortunately the hotfix did not solve the problem.


I will send you a PM via this forum, please be respond to it.


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 12/12/2016 12:29 AM
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G.J. Premo
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Same here, the hot fix did not fix the DPI 15 inability to use Natlink /Vocola.
natlink.NatError: A SRERR_VALUEOUTOFRANGE error occurred calling ISRResGraph::GetWordNode from ResObj.cpp 186.

I also saw in messages from Natlink an error message that it could not find language file zzz
I don't speak zzz or even Zulu.

Waste of time to install DPI 15, and now I have work to do just to get back to square one and re-install DPI 14.
 12/12/2016 10:57 AM
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Chucker
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GJ et al.,

Since I don't use Natlink/Vocola, Rüdiger is the only one to whom you should ask and/or respond on this issue.

I only downloaded it for testing with Office 2007, 2010, and 2013. Based on what Rüdiger has said, I suspect he's the only one who has a working fix.

Chuck

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 12/12/2016 12:17 PM
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G.J. Premo
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I don't agree that the pose should be private. Sometmes collective wisdom helps.
 12/12/2016 01:20 PM
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R. Wilke
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Originally posted by: G.J. Premo I don't agree that the pose should be private. Sometmes collective wisdom helps.


It is not about privacy. I sent a PM asking for a script where it happens, but I didn't get a response. So I am asking this again in public: can you or anyone else post a script where the error occurs that I can run and replicate the error, as I would really like to try and figure it out.

Thanks in advance, Rüdiger

 



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Chucker
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GJ,

Don't shoot the messenger. Look at Rüdiger's post above. I'm only passing along what I know.

Chuck

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is." - Yogi Berra



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 12/12/2016 04:25 PM
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G.J. Premo
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I did not get a PM.
Vocola not working happened on the simple command "Edit Voice Commands", which is built into Vocola.
Next happened on a AppBringUp command to open a program (no point sending script, since its program you don't have).
Command in the form = Open [Program] = AppBringUp("[Directory\[Executable],""');
Those are the only two commands I tried, as a test, before uninstalling DPI 15, because it was obvious it was not working at all, and Messages from Natlink was showing the error.
Dragon Recognition History recognized the commands as commands, but they were not executed.
 12/12/2016 05:10 PM
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R. Wilke
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Gilbert, the PM wasn't sent to you, but I can see it now. I'll admit that my preliminary testing didn't go all the way, as I had only tested with a limited set of grammars (dictation and selection) where the error doesn't show up. Sorry for that.

Will try and see what can be done about it.





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guidugli
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For anyone interested, I tested with the https://github.com/dictation-toolbox/aenea/tree/master/client/_hello_world_dragonfly.py grammar. If is there anything else I can do please let me know.



 12/23/2016 03:14 AM
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esjesjesj
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I also installed a hot fix and tried out natlink again.

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "C:\NatLink\NatLink\MacroSystem\core\natlinkmain.py", line 577, in beginCallback
(cbd, checkAll, checkForGrammarChanges)
natlink.NatError: A SRERR_VALUEOUTOFRANGE error occurred calling ISRResGraph::GetWordNode from ResObj.cpp 186.

Is there something I'm missing or do we just need to wait for hot fix 2?
 12/23/2016 02:37 PM
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R. Wilke
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Is there something I'm missing or do we just need to wait for hot fix 2?

 

You are not missing anything, and unfortunately hoping for a fix to materialize is all we can do at this stage. I have done all that I can to forward this to development.

 



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G.J. Premo
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Have to wait, and hope it is eventually fixed.
 12/25/2016 10:17 PM
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Voice
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Did this hot fix change how well Natlink/Dragonfly works with DPI 15 (as opposed to Natlink/Vocola)? I am especially interested in continuous command recognition and some of the more complex commands in the multiedit module. Sorry if this question has already been answered and I missed it. I'm not extremely tech savvy so my apologies if the answer to this question is obvious. I too am hoping to install DPI 15 soon so I can take advantage of the deep learning and not lose commands I use frequently. I am currently using version 13.

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 12/26/2016 02:42 AM
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caligula
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Originally posted by: Voice Did this hot fix change how well Natlink/Dragonfly works with DPI 15 (as opposed to Natlink/Vocola)? I am especially interested in continuous command recognition and some of the more complex commands in the multiedit module. Sorry if this question has already been answered and I missed it. I'm not extremely tech savvy so my apologies if the answer to this question is obvious. I too am hoping to install DPI 15 soon so I can take advantage of the deep learning and not lose commands I use frequently. I am currently using version 13.

Unfortunately no. I'd advise you to wait with 13 for now, until DPI 15 is usable or 16 is released.

 12/26/2016 05:51 AM
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R. Wilke
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Originally posted by: caligula Unfortunately no. I'd advise you to wait with 13 for now, until DPI 15 is usable or 16 is released.

 

We cannot count on DPI 16 fixing the issue per se. Unfortunately, there is some likelihood that the issue will never be fixed and that DPI 14 will be the last Dragon version which is working with NatLink for that matter.

 

 



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caligula
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Originally posted by: R. Wilke
Originally posted by: caligula Unfortunately no. I'd advise you to wait with 13 for now, until DPI 15 is usable or 16 is released.

 

 

 

We cannot count on DPI 16 fixing the issue per se. Unfortunately, there is some likelihood that the issue will never be fixed and that DPI 14 will be the last Dragon version which is working with NatLink for that matter. 

 

 

That is a worrying thought. Do you have any knowledge on the likelihood of that scenario? Also, would there be any other way in your opinion to have continuous command recognition functionality?



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R. Wilke
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That is a worrying thought. Do you have any knowledge on the likelihood of that scenario?


Yes extremely worrying indeed, and I do have some knowledge on that, but it isn't meant to be published, at least not yet for which I am sorry. Suffice it to say that I have played all my cards at this stage, so to speak.

Also, would there be any other way in your opinion to have continuous command recognition functionality?


My main, or only interest is in the basic functioning of NatLink. I am actually not familiar with continuous command as a derivatíve functionality. But if NatLink stops working beginning with DPI 15 and cannot be brought back, you will probably have to stick with anything up until DPI 14.



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esjesjesj
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we have a couple of other options.  1) bribe lunis to add a python/natlink/dragonfly environment to knowbrainer.  I would pay for that in a heartbeat especially if it enabled paying the natlink crew for the development effort. 2) move natlink to the "official" natspeak API. also too much like work?? needs funding?? 3) move to another speech reco system through the python speech recognition module https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SpeechRecognition/

which would be most practical?

--- eric

 12/27/2016 03:47 AM
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caligula
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Originally posted by: esjesjesj we have a couple of other options.  1) bribe lunis to add a python/natlink/dragonfly environment to knowbrainer.  I would pay for that in a heartbeat especially if it enabled paying the natlink crew for the development effort. 2) move natlink to the "official" natspeak API. also too much like work?? needs funding?? 3) move to another speech reco system through the python speech recognition module https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SpeechRecognition/

 

which would be most practical?

 

--- eric

 

1 & 2) Do you know whether continuous command recognition is even technically possible via the official dragon SDK (and therefore also KnowBrainer)?

3) Well, Vocola as well as Dragonfly already work with WSR. The problem is that WSR isn't that great. I'm not aware of any speech recognition solution that's on par with dragon.

 12/27/2016 01:33 PM
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It might be possible to split it down the middle. You might think about the possible advantage of using Vocola in WSR for commands only. That is, after all, Vocola's purpose. If you could limit WSR to Command Mode, you could use Dragon for dictation; both speech engines simultaneously. We don't know if this is even possible but thought we would throw it out there. As to the other question…

Even if we could utilize Natlink/Vocola in KnowBrainer, we would be violating existing Nuance agreements. Having said that, Nuance wouldn't likely mind because Vocola can only improve Dragon. We only mention this because Natlink is utilizing Dragon code while other third-party command utilities, such as VoiceComputer and KnowBrainer, don't borrow Dragon code and only hook into Dragon, which is legal. When Nuance eventually stops selling dated versions of Dragon (Home Edition 13 and Premium 13), they may no longer care because beginning with Ver. 14, all versions of Dragon include the ability to create Advanced-Scripting commands. In other words, end-users will eventually stop purchasing Premium 13 for $99 so that they can pseudo-equivalent Professional 13 by adding Vocola. We suspect that Nuance looks at all third-party command utilities as potentially making Dragon better but we wonder if they will feel the same way about these utilities supporting other speech engines. Vocola and VoiceComputer already support WSR but we suspect WSR is not really a Dragon threat. However, the Google speech engine and Cortana seem to be getting closer.



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 12/28/2016 12:14 AM
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esjesjesj
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Originally posted by: Lunis Orcutt  In other words, end-users will eventually stop purchasing Premium 13 for $99 so that they can pseudo-equivalent Professional 13 by adding Vocola. We suspect that Nuance looks at all third-party command utilities as potentially making Dragon better but we wonder if they will feel the same way about these utilities supporting other speech engines. Vocola and VoiceComputer already support WSR but we suspect WSR is not really a Dragon threat. However, the Google speech engine and Cortana seem to be getting closer.

I never used Vocola to create a Pseudo-equivalent to professional. I use it because it's an order of magnitude better than the pseudo-basic they shipped as an extension toolkit. I would gladly use the built-in extension tool if I had the ability to:

use the first row and column of the CSV file to dynamically create a grammar and the values within the CSV file to create the results returned by the grammar

Invoke an RPC call (xmlrpc/soap/pyrpc)

Query mongodb

Get information from an Emacs buffer, process it through a local filter (which uses a database) and then put the result back in the buffer

Have extension grammars independent of your user/speech model (helps survive upgrades/moments of frustration were you delete your user and start training a new one and only then realize you lost all of your macros)

And last, write extensions using NaturallySpeaking itself without a whole lot of editor support.

As you can see, these are things I used Vocola for and quite frankly nuance's macroenvironment is "inadequate". 

Google recognition is quite good. They've just added some editing by speech commands but I don't know if they have the ability to add more commands. The Google recognition engine is so good, my mom, at age 82 started using speech recognition because her hands hurt too much to type. Since she's running Linux (started learning it at age 80) she could not use NaturallySpeaking so I had her try Google and it works really well for her. 

The problem is as much as NaturallySpeaking plus vocola is a bag of parts, building a new environment out of Google speech recognition is an even bigger bag of parts.

 



 12/27/2016 03:28 PM
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We only mention this because Natlink is utilizing Dragon code while other third-party command utilities, such as VoiceComputer and KnowBrainer, don't borrow Dragon code and only hook into Dragon, which is legal.


Lunis, you have it backwards, quite the opposite is true. Among the third-party utilities you are mentioning, NatLink is the one that does not depend on the Dragon SDK, unlike KnowBrainer and also Voicecomputer, quite simply because NatLink was created at at time when the SDK wasn't even around and the basics are still the same and haven't changed ever since.

Lindsay might fill you in with more details as regards violating the EULA.

On the other hand, the whole idea of integrating NatLink functionality into KnowBrainer is moot and not doable anyway, for technical and legal reasons.

Migrating NatLink to the Dragon SDK would not only violate the license, but also compromise most of the underlying basic functionality, which lives in the enhanced world of pure SAPI4. No one needs another KnowBrainer like restricted command scripting utility.

Your best bet will be to stick with anything up to and including DPI 14, as I said above, or go with WSR.



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 01/05/2017 11:59 AM
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guidugli
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Posts: 5
Joined: 12/07/2016

I am returning my copy of Dragon 15. Will purchase when/if a patch is available. It is frustrating that support does not have a clear answer if and when a patch will be available.

The product is really good, accurate even for me (non native English speaker) but it is the ability of having it integrated with solutions like natlink/vocola/dragonfly, that makes it the best one available. I tried WSR and it is awful. Maybe it works for native English speakers but did not work very well for me. I sincerely hope they provide a patch soon.
 01/08/2017 06:33 PM
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mdl
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Posts: 797
Joined: 04/18/2009

Wilke, do you know if the hot fix fixed the problem with the Dragon SDK? If so, Nuance may not feel the need to fix things further. :-(
 01/08/2017 06:36 PM
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mdl
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As far as the EULA, I'm pretty sure KnowBrainer also doesn't comply either anymore. The DPI 14 text includes:

As used in this Agreement, "Run-time Engine" shall mean the accessing of the Software Package by application software via an Application Programming Interface("API") that may be incorporated into the Software Package by Nuance, or similar direct access to the code of the Software Package that by-passes the API. Such use is subject to separate licensing to the application software developer and to the end user.
 01/08/2017 06:44 PM
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mdl
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Joined: 04/18/2009

As far as APIs, my hazy memory is that:

The Nuance-provided SDK doesn't allow non-flat commands (continuous
commands require this) but might allow arbitrary dictation at the end of
commands. I assume this is what KnowBrainer is using.

The SAPI interface allows non-flat commands, including continuous
commands, but not arbitrary dictation.

The (unofficial) NatLink interface allows both non-flat commands and
arbitrary dictation at any point, but doesn't work properly with DPI 15
due to a DPI 15 bugs.
 03/16/2017 05:40 PM
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chpla
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Posts: 85
Joined: 05/26/2015

Lunis wrote that Natlink would be (or has been) updgraded to SAPI5:


http://www.knowbrainer.com/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=25&threadid=24033&enterthread=y  


Any update on that available from a Natlink guru?



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